Contol, HDMI and Amp questions - Please help me from going mad

[phillj]

I am currently looking into moving my Media Center from the lounge into the garage along with my Windows Home Server. Whilst looking into this I seem to have gone a bit mad I have started mapping out my ideal install, with the mind to run all the cables required to all the rooms for this and keep adding one bit at a time until one day it is complete (though we all know this will never happen, there is always something new to add or replace). Anyway this is how far I have gotten at the moment:

These are the sources I am looking at for the various zones:

Lounge:
TV
Music

Dining Room:
Music

Kitchen:
Touchscreen PC
Music

Garden:
Music

Bathroom:
Music

Master Bedroom:
TV
Music

Bedroom 2:
TV
Music

Bedroom 3 (Future planning for when/if we move ever, second child at some point)
TV
Music

Study (though this will probably all be accessed through the pc):
PC
Music
TV

There will be a TV display in all the locations for TV and 2 x celling speakers for all music locations. The exception to this rule is the lounge where there will be 5.1 surround sound via a Denon (RS232) amp in the garage with celling or wall speakers. The TV sources will be MC pc for the lounge and extenders for the other rooms. The music source will be several Sonos boxes (some may serve multiple zones).

It will all be controllable via a remote in each room and an iPod touch or iPad (at least everything except the source channel change, pause, play etc.). Though saying that I purchased vmcmote after Dunks mentioned it and it works really well (just don't want to have to slide it open every time to use it). I have been looking at integrating LifeWare or Control4 or something into this (though with the exception of LifeWare, which looks like the best fit so far) it seems you have to buy there bespoke kit, which is very expensive and something I do not want to do. Also thinking about a touchscreen in the hallway by the door to control lighting

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The problem I have at the moment is that I am not sure about controlling it and routing sources?

I have found that Xantech do very good reliable IR distribution. So I thought about looking into getting a Xantech 795-20 zone based IR block:

http://www.xantech.com/Infrared/Infrared...cks/79520/

It will allow me to have 4 zones (which stops cross talk, so when I want to turn the amp up in the lounge, it does do the one in the master bedroom too (assuming it is the same make)). This also allows me to add an RS232 controller and contact, relays to the mix.

Also to integrate it into LifeWare or other IP based control systems you can buy a Global Cache GC-100 network adapter:

http://www.cyberselect.co.uk/range/1223

There is also a Global Cache GC-CGX IR Converter Cable, GC-100 to Xantech, that will allow you to use your iPod touch device to control the IR from the network.

Or would it be best to use an RF remote or some other zone based solution?

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The other question I have is when I connect the Sonos boxes to the speakers, I was thinking of having a zone amp? Which one do I ago for? The Russound and Nuvo ones seem to come with their own system. It would need to do stereo and provide eight zones (The lounge will use the amp that it has) and allow in at least 4 the ability to switch between 2 sources (Sonos and MC extender).

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Also I would like to plan for (future expansion) a matrix switch for HDMI? This is so that if I was to get SKY HD or some other source i could watch it around the house. Also I quite like the thought of being able to pause the source downstairs and retire to the bedroom and finish of watching it from where it left off? (Currently with the MC extender it is acceptable to just fast forward to the correct place upstairs).

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Sorry for rambling on a bit, but this is driving me mad, I seem to be going round in circles asking more questions that answering :) If anyone can help put me straight on a few things that would be great!

P.s. If this should be put seperatly then please let me know.

[elootos]

Well, apart from buying a 300m drum of Cat5e cable. I would think that the 'future' of all home control is iPhone/Android related. Why develop hardware controllers when a wifi zone with mobile device control works just as well?

So, I would think that the Amp is your key purchase. If you do really want a zillion ceiling speakers throughout your house (I'm just jealous ), then they will always need amplifying and a good amp is always a good investment.

I see what you mean about some having their own control systems, the Russound for example can be had in a 6 zone kit inc. matrix displays for about £1800. But you may be spending £800 of that on a system that may be redundant if the amp is all you want.


OK, bear with me. What about your Media PC in the lounge, your Home Server, then an extender PC that drives all the other rooms?

The extender PC could have multiple soundcards (n amount apparently, and if USB then you could easily have one per zone.), and then a stereo amp (or zonal amp) to drive each zones ceiling speakers. Switching between soundcards could be shortcut'd and then an iPhone app to control the shortcuts.... (ignoring the failings of having to shutdown what you're watching to change soundcards)

...you still taking this seriously? OK, so basically a 'master' extender PC controlled via shortcuts via a mobile app over wifi. It may only play one zone at a time, but if also using independant stereo amps, they could have 2 inputs: one for its specific soundcard, the second for a generalised soundcard split to each amp. So 'all, or one at a time' kinda thing.

Run HDMI over Cat5 to each room required...

So, a handful of Apps for an iPhone/iPad, one extender PC on steroids and a bulk lot of amps from Richer Sounds and off you go.

This really is the 'sticky back plastic' approach, but hey, that's me all over!

[northan]

Was there not someone on this forum that was doing av and ir over ip.
Needing no more than cat5e/6 I guess.

Elootos is right that by buying a drum and wiring everything to death plus more is the way to go.

I also feel for you with the questions, you have to balance budget, time, future proofing and pleasing the missus with easy to use gear.

[phillj]

I hear what you guys are saying about the wire the hell out of the house with cat 5e/6!!! It saves time and costs later!

elootos I think you have made me realsie that the reason most of these control systems use iphones/ipdads and bespoke wireless devices, is because it works and is reliable, so maybe I can do without IR? (It scares me half to death failing the WAF, plus in my job we spend so much money on redundancy, that it is just ingrained in me now )

As for amps can anyone reccomend one that will do multi zone and has some kind of remote conrtol option (preferabley ip or RS232), that can take atleast two inputs per zone? Or am I asking for the sky?

I see what you are saying elootos about the "blutack and sticky back polastic" approach. But I am really keen on the sonos (though I have never used it, so can only assume it si the geek in me ) and use one and slowly build it up until the rest of the system is there. Plus it is solely controlled over wreless (either Sonos controller or ipod/ipad).

Thanks for your help so far guys!

[elootos]

(07-23-2010 09:09 AM)phillj Wrote:  I hear what you guys are saying about the wire the hell out of the house with cat 5e/6!!! It saves time and costs later!

elootos I think you have made me realsie that the reason most of these control systems use iphones/ipdads and bespoke wireless devices, is because it works and is reliable, so maybe I can do without IR? (It scares me half to death failing the WAF, plus in my job we spend so much money on redundancy, that it is just ingrained in me now )

As for amps can anyone reccomend one that will do multi zone and has some kind of remote conrtol option (preferabley ip or RS232), that can take atleast two inputs per zone? Or am I asking for the sky?

I see what you are saying elootos about the "blutack and sticky back polastic" approach. But I am really keen on the sonos (though I have never used it, so can only assume it si the geek in me ) and use one and slowly build it up until the rest of the system is there. Plus it is solely controlled over wreless (either Sonos controller or ipod/ipad).

Thanks for your help so far guys!

I think Dunks uses Sonos now in his home. It is the bees knees of wireless music control in the home and supports on-line streaming of the most popular systems so is guaranteed future-proof in that respect (still rocking my Spotify subscription, although they need to implement more music or it's gonna get the boot from me within 3 months; if its a classic or is too marketable then it's not on there, so what's the point?). Anyway, back on track. But, it seems to require players in each room, rather than a omnipresent playing device in a rack somewhere which I think is your plan is it not; to have all speakers feed back to a central amp source?

So you rather need a single playing source controlled via iDevice (easily enough done), and then a switchable amp? Which brings you back to the Russound-type amp again does it not? Unless you have a series of Sonos players in the rack attached to its own amp.

Or you could track back to parts of what I mentioned earlier about having a bank of stereo amps (£120 each lets say) that can be controlled remotely via another iDevice app such as an IR blaster with isolated blasters on each amp bringing them on/off and volume up/down.

So 2 apps, one for a player controlling a remote PC source (or a single Sonos player if you like as their app looks to have WAF), then another controlling something as simple as an RF multi-power supply bringing each amp on/off and leave the independent volume controls alone; global volume will be controlled via the player.

[phillj]

I am looking at implementing (in an ideal world, but I don't have ideal world money ) several Sonos boxes in a central rack and then amp them to the room ceiling speakers and control this via the iPod touch (turn the amps on and use the Sonos app for the volume and music).

I did manage to find this brilliant beast - a Denon 6 zone stereo amp (it only has one input, but I am sure I can get a switch or some sort, or just use the TV for the sound on TV sources) Denon POA-3012CI It even has an Ethernet socket! However I cannot find it for sale in the UK So as you mentioned I think I will have to face facts and get a bunch of stereo amps (there goes my electricity bill).

Thanks for the input it is appreciated :)

[elootos]

(07-23-2010 01:58 PM)phillj Wrote:  I am looking at implementing (in an ideal world, but I don't have ideal world money ) several Sonos boxes in a central rack and then amp them to the room ceiling speakers and control this via the iPod touch (turn the amps on and use the Sonos app for the volume and music).

I did manage to find this brilliant beast - a Denon 6 zone stereo amp (it only has one input, but I am sure I can get a switch or some sort, or just use the TV for the sound on TV sources) Denon POA-3012CI It even has an Ethernet socket! However I cannot find it for sale in the UK So as you mentioned I think I will have to face facts and get a bunch of stereo amps (there goes my electricity bill).

Thanks for the input it is appreciated :)

Yeah, that's what I thought you would end with; a Sonos and amp for each room.

If you also allow for a £10 intelliplug on each amp, then they'll only come on when the attached Sonos comes on as well.

I bet that Denon consumes mega-wattage compared to a few individual stereo amps.

At least it's a modular system that can be built easily over time. Time to become mates with a Sonos dealer...

EDIT: seen that Richer Sounds do Cambridge Audio amps for £80, which will be fine for ceiling speakers as they aren't exactly precision audio devices anyway. So even 6 of them will easily be £1000 cheaper than any multi-zone amp. Money for more Sonos!

[phillj]

(07-23-2010 02:46 PM)elootos Wrote:  Yeah, that's what I thought you would end with; a Sonos and amp for each room.

If you also allow for a £10 intelliplug on each amp, then they'll only come on when the attached Sonos comes on as well.

I bet that Denon consumes mega-wattage compared to a few individual stereo amps.

At least it's a modular system that can be built easily over time. Time to become mates with a Sonos dealer...

EDIT: seen that Richer Sounds do Cambridge Audio amps for £80, which will be fine for ceiling speakers as they aren't exactly precision audio devices anyway. So even 6 of them will easily be £1000 cheaper than any multi-zone amp. Money for more Sonos!

I will have to look into the several stereo amp situation.

Thanks for the tip on the intelliplug, sounds like a good one.

The next thing to figure out is control. How would you guys approach this? I would like iPod touch (I am open to remote in each room for TV source). preferably it would be an all in one app, but life is never that simple

[elootos]

(07-23-2010 04:59 PM)phillj Wrote:  The next thing to figure out is control. How would you guys approach this? I would like iPod touch (I am open to remote in each room for TV source). preferably it would be an all in one app, but life is never that simple

Wouldn't you just use the Sonos iPhone app?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vRParPMkaLk

[phillj]

(07-23-2010 07:13 PM)elootos Wrote:  Wouldn't you just use the Sonos iPhone app?

I sure would, the Sonos app just "Freaking ROCKS!"

I think I would be silly not to! It has the WAF and just work and best of all its free, my favourite price.

The problem I have is how to control the rest of the kit really, the TV sources and MC extenders!

elootos you have started me looking on eBay and finding load of cheap stereo amps , which will do the trick for a fraction of the cost! The only issue with the ones i have seen so far is needing a way of changing channel, though I reckon there must be ones with remotes and therefore an ir blaster would do the trick I think I may be coming round to this 'sticky back plastic'